Nerds On Tap

Gaming & Spending: The Parent's Dilemma

• Nerds On Tap • Season 1 • Episode 16

Share episode

Welcome to another exciting episode of Nerds On Tap! This time, we're diving into the captivating world of virtual currency in gaming, a topic that's become increasingly relevant for parents and gamers. We start with a story that sparked this discussion, exploring how virtual currencies work in popular games like Fortnite and Roblox. We also look at the growth of Live Service Games and the rise of microtransactions, discussing why these in-game purchases are so appealing to kids, teens, and adults.

In the second segment, we tackle the issue of game bans and what parents need to know. We cover why and how players get banned in games like Fortnite, Roblox, Call of Duty, and Pokemon Go, and the different types of bans such as Temporary, Permanent, Account, and IP bans. We also discuss cheat detection software and its impact on gaming fairness, the consequences of cheating, and the importance of maintaining game integrity. Additionally, we address the impact of cyberbullying in online gaming and the tools available for parents to monitor and control their children's gaming activities.

Finally, we delve into the legal and ethical considerations surrounding in-game purchases, focusing on the Epic vs Apple and Epic vs Google lawsuits. We examine terms of service, the implications of banned accounts, and the role of parental consent and control over in-game purchases. We also discuss the responsibility of game developers in protecting young consumers. We conclude with a recap of key points, final thoughts, advice for parents, and an exciting announcement: Nerds on Tap is now part of Digital Boardwalk TV!

Beers Tasted:
Tates Helles German Style Lager from Oyster City Brewing Company, Apalachicola, FL
Oyster City Beers — Oyster City Brewing Co.

Samuel Adams Old Fezziwig Ale
For The Love Of Beer | Samuel Adams

Maduro Brown Ale from Cigar City Brewery, Tampa FL
Beers | Cigar City Brewing

#NerdsOnTap #GamingAndSpending #VirtualCurrency #ParentingTips #Fortnite #Roblox #LiveServiceGames #Microtransactions #EpicVsApple #EpicVsGoogle #GamingBans #Cyberbullying #CraftBeer #Podcast #DigitalBoardwalkTV #SamuelAdams #CigarCityBrewery #OysterCityBrewing

Sponsor of this episode:  Digital Boardwalk
Digital Boardwalk is one of the top 10 Managed IT Service Providers in the United States.  If you are seeking to outsource your IT Management, or if your IT Team could use some help with projects or asset management, give Digital Boardwalk a call today!  They offer a FREE IT Maturity Assessment on their website.  If you want to see how your business's IT scores against industry standards, go to GoModernOffice.com now.

Thanks for listening!
Visit us online at www.thenerdsontap.com
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel
Follow us on Instagram
Like us on Facebook

Tim Shoop:

kevin games decided to send me another bot email on this situation. Oh my god, hey, hey audience welcome to nerds on tap.

Tim Shoop:

We'll get back to what I was just talking about. Uh, welcome to another episode of nerds on tap, where we get nerdy for an hour, uh, and talk about anything nerdy business, entrepreneurship or, uh, technology infused with what. Whatever our discussion happens to be, today, we are getting into a topic that kind of hit home with me and my son this week gaming and spending the parent's dilemma is what we're going to talk about, and today I've got Sam the IT guy on again. Hello, thanks for coming on again, sam.

Tim Shoop:

We appreciate you, you redheaded sexy beast, you.

Sam The IT Guy:

Well, get used to seeing me, friends skew.

Tim Shoop:

Well, get used to seeing me friends. Um, anyway, I was. I was talking about the topic gaming and spending, the parents dilemma. We're gonna dive in uh to uh, the investment in virtual currencies in games like fortnite and roblox and how we deal with it as parents and and what can happen that can really kill a kid's spirit. Oh yeah, uh in playing those games. Um, we're gonna, we'll talk about um uh once we get through virtual currency. We're gonna get into the growing popularity in live service games and then we're going to dive into some existing lawsuits against, or some pre-existing lawsuits that have been resolved between Epic Games and companies like Apple and Google, and why and how does the importance of that tie into our story today.

Sam The IT Guy:

But go ahead. Is it fair to say that what we're going to cover is indeed going to be epic?

Tim Shoop:

Oh, it's going to be epic because we're going to talk about epic games. They've had a lot of trouble over the years, but we'll get into it later. As always and you know this by coming on our show last time as always, we got to kick it off with a tasty beverage. Always, Edge, take it away. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Nerds on Tap. I'm your host, Tim Shue, and I couldn't be more excited to embark on this nerdy adventure with all of you. So grab your favorite brew, because things are about to get exciting 3, 2, 1, go.

Edge:

Alright, guys. So our first beer that we have today is our Tate's Helles. It's a German-style lager from the brewery oyster city brewing company from abalachicola, florida. The brewer's description describes it as a traditional lager utilizing all german malts and hops to produce a malt accented, lightly hopped, golden crisp and crushable experience for the drinker. It's's named after the local Tate's Hell State Forest.

Tim Shoop:

Fantastic Edge. I appreciate that wonderful description on this beer. Thank you, sam. The IT guy cheers to you sir. Clinky clinky. All right, let me know what you think on that.

Sam The IT Guy:

These flights, these little glasses, these are like shot glasses, so it's uh yeah, I, I reflexively, after we clinked, like dropped it and I was like wait, we're not doing that, like we're not going that hard and it's very hard to to not just shoot it right like I was mid-gulp before.

Tim Shoop:

I was like, wait, and this first beer needs to, needs to uh make it through the entire first segment.

Tim Shoop:

So I actually had someone that was shooting these on a prior show. If you remember the show we did with steve wilmer, the insurance guy, um, he had to take a pee break in the middle because he was shooting all the beer. So, anyways, let's get into the topic at hand. We're going to talk about the introduction of uh to virtual currency and games, absolutely, and kind of start there and then make our way into the other segments that we previously talked about. So what sparked this episode? Kind of hit home with us. I have a 13-year-old son at home and he loves to play Fortnite with his friends.

Tim Shoop:

Now as opposed to when I was growing up. I'm a Gen Xer, so when I was growing up, yes, I played video games, but the video games had a start and an end. Right, you didn't play with your friends online. The technology, obviously, was decades later oh yeah, because I'm old. But we would go out and play in the neighborhood with our friends. Right.

Tim Shoop:

Whatever that might be right, whatever that might be, the kids nowadays their way of getting together? Um, because you know they might live on the opposite side of the town or whatever, or in other towns which, which, uh, it brings them together, um, through technologies like discord, and, and and other other systems like that that tie into games and you, they can connect on these games, play online.

Edge:

we all know we've been down this way, yeah 100.

Tim Shoop:

This is old news, right, so? So let's talk. So this week, specifically earlier this week, my son walked out in the living room where I was sitting and I could tell he was upset, right, uh, sat him down, listened to a story. He got, quote unquote, permabanned, oh no, from fortnight for supposedly cheating, cheating yeah, okay, yeah and here's the thing now. I always err on the side of being a dad when I have these discussions, and I start the discussion out that way, I go. Well, what did you do, right?

Sam The IT Guy:

You know, first and foremost, let's let's check that accountability, personal responsibility. What could you have done differently? Would that have prevented it? No, now we can move on to the next steps and and here's the thing.

Tim Shoop:

So I listened to him. I felt bad for him. Oh absolutely, and then I tried to figure out why he got banned. So the very first thing I did was I did some research online. I read about these different cheat codes and cheat software that you can install on your machine to cheat inside these games, yes, and so I started there. Okay, and I went on his machine. I looked in his event viewer right, I looked at different things.

Tim Shoop:

Apparently maybe vpns you know, I've been reading in reddit that you know vpn could be the situation you know they don't like, because epic likes to track your ip. They like to try, they like to monitor your activity. Apparently it's in their terms of service, which we'll get into later, right, and they like which, which concerns me a as a parent, that my son is being monitored at a young age, right, you know, and you know, being in cyber security, that topic concerns me very quickly, very heavily too I don't like it.

Tim Shoop:

Um, secondly, uh. So I went through his event viewer, I went in his task manager, I went through his entire machine. There wasn't any cheat software. There wasn't any instance. The only thing that was on his machine there was an express vpn that that loaded by. The manufacturer bought the machine. So I uninstalled it just as a precaution. I went back in, kept trying the games. The problem is when he would go into the game it wouldn't give him the option to play it under that account.

Tim Shoop:

Okay, so then when he goes into his other account, it'll load it but it boots him from the game and it tells him you know you?

Sam The IT Guy:

yeah, so his. So this, this was one of those where they didn't just block an account, they blocked him by the mac address of his device.

Tim Shoop:

Yeah, okay, nintendo does something extremely similar, that's what it sounds like, but I I can't get a straight answer out of epic and and we're gonna get back to what epic decided to say and not do and and that sort of thing. So here, so this story gets better, so I go. Well, caleb, I heard you online, I listened to you, I can hear you in your room playing with your friends and I know how good you are. Now my son he plays in these tournaments and he really gets fired up about these tournaments. There's like 3,000 or 4,000 kids in these tournaments.

Tim Shoop:

Oh hot dog, and in the last couple tournaments he finished, he was ranked up in the top 15. That's impressive. He's pretty good yeah, absolutely, and. But he doesn't like playing with people that aren't so good, and that's a familiar feeling. That's so he tends to say things like you're, you're not great, you're, you're not good, what are you doing, come on, come on, come on, come on. And he and it's almost like he's talking a different language he's talking so fast, right, because he's trying to lift them up to be as good as him, so he can create a team and go in and win these tournaments exactly. So the only thing I could surmise at that point is maybe they're monitoring what he's saying on discord, which, no cussing, nothing like my son, I, I can hear him in there, no cussing, none of that. But you maybe a little bit of talking down. So I'll give it that.

Tim Shoop:

But here's the deal. That's not what it was Right. So come to find out another kid that he had been playing with that apparently got offended by the way Caleb was talking to him on there. Decided to report him for cheating yeah. Decided to report him for cheating yeah. And then decided to text him and all his friends that kind of like a badge of honor that he got him booted from fortnight for cheating, even though he wasn't.

Tim Shoop:

Now what I'd like to do, um, and, and, and so that's the story that introduces this segment. Okay, so, and and. What I want to talk about in this first segment is virtual currency. Okay, uh, and I want to kick it off by saying my son had over 500 invested in that account right but epic games does not care how much you have.

Tim Shoop:

It's even in their terms of service, which we'll get back to in the final segment. Okay, they don't care and I get it. You're trying to create a fun and safe place for your kids to play, so I commend Epic for doing that. But I don't like the way they go about banning someone just because they think he was cheating. They couldn't give me any evidence that he cheated, right, and hence, going back to the beginning of the show, right, I got an email from epic and they they won't tell me. They won't tell me why he got banned, right. They won't say it was cheating, they just said he's perma banned now are you?

Tim Shoop:

are you emailing epic from his account, posing as him trying to get information, or I'm emailing them as a parent, okay, yeah, and I told oh, that's right, who I was because and it's also, I'm assuming, it's also a child account that they have set up it is okay, and it is something that's already tied very interesting.

Sam The IT Guy:

Okay, very interesting so it's one of those where there's not there's not any kind of like um, of security features that you have to get around because of it. No, not at all, because it's already linked up.

Tim Shoop:

I'm basically replying to a ticket, anyway. So, a ticket's linked to an email which is forwarded inside a ticketing system, and it's connected that way.

Sam The IT Guy:

I know a lot of smaller developers for live service games like this will use things like Zendesk like a board board for tickets oh yeah, absolutely.

Sam The IT Guy:

Um, so I what I would assume have like, because, again, I, I'm one of those where I tend to try to immediately give benefit of the doubt wherever I possibly can, because, um, I have always ended up falling flat on my face in any kind of discussion when I thought I was right about something. Right, you know what I mean. So with with this one, I know, because I, I have spent years playing games, years like literally grew up with it. Uh, my generation was the one that that was kind of the bridge, right, it's kind of the bridge between, you know, gen x and gen z. Now I think it's the other ones, because we're gen y, which I don't know why we went with millennials, because it absolutely fits our generation to be gen right. Why so I like that, but growing up I like that a lot, right, I probably saw that online, so I know it sounded clever, but I'm pretty sure I just stole it gen x X, I would imagine that stands for extreme Right.

Tim Shoop:

Of course we were badasses.

Sam The IT Guy:

Everything you guys invented skateboarding, at least the X Games version of it. The PC oh, that's right, pc.

Sam The IT Guy:

Oh beautiful, beautiful technology, consoles, consoles, all of it, gaming in general. But the thing is like, since I've kind of grown up with live service games as a whole, right like I, I actually not just witnessed it but participated in it as we went on. Because you know for I think the first mmo like technically mmo because if anyone else like it's a free-to-play game it was called runescape. Now I ended up getting hooked to this game and it's one of those where it's not actually very involved, it's all just managing and progressing.

Tim Shoop:

Tell our audience what MMO stands for, because not everybody's, oh gotcha.

Sam The IT Guy:

Now an MMO stands for a Massively Multiplayer Online Game. Now usually you hear them as MMORPGs. Things like RuneScape, wow, all that jazz, all fall under that umbrella. Rpg role-playing, exactly so, whereas Fortnite would be more of an MMO shooter. But there's certain mechanics in games that are intentionally used to kind of get that constant dopamine drip right, and it's as simple as small rewards as you play Now old school games, the ones that you remember right Pong, donk Pong.

Tim Shoop:

Okay, all right, I will say the very first console I had was Pong.

Sam The IT Guy:

Uh-huh.

Tim Shoop:

But that's not what I grew up on. I grew up on an Atari 2600 with games like Donkey Kong and Frogger and Pac-Man and Space Invaders. Hey, what are you laughing for, Sam?

Sam The IT Guy:

I was wanting to tag Pong onto that list again.

Tim Shoop:

I am going to Pong you over the head now, anyway. So let's get on. Yeah, let's, let's, let's talk about, let's talk about virtual currency. So here's, here's where the dilemma came in for caleb.

Tim Shoop:

He has a lot of money tied up in that oh yeah, and as a parent, when they, when my kids first approached me when they were like seven or eight, wanting to buy a skin, I mean the very first thing he wanted to buy was a skin. Inside at the time it was, I think, roblox right, um, and then you're like and I'm like you want to spend how much on a collection of pixels? I think it was five or ten bucks, it wasn't, but I was like dude, that's intangible. Yeah, it doesn't actually exist in the real world and you don't own it and you don't own it because it is owned by the company.

Tim Shoop:

So the way epic, in this situation, sees it is you don't own it, it's intangible, you bought it in our store and you can turn it back in for credits unless you get banned, even if the ban wasn't legitimate, right? So that's how I see it. So, as a parent, when, when my my child first approached me when he was like seven and wanted to buy a skin for like five or ten bucks, I was like no, but but as a parent, yeah, you know, let's, let's go back to the right, not the pong days, let's go back to the birth of mmos, to the early 80s oh, even better early 80s.

Tim Shoop:

So the, the, the uh, introduction of 80, 88s. Right, I had an Atari computer, whatever. But buying a skin in a game, even though it's intangible and it's something you buy in the game. It's no different, in my opinion, than the way our parents would fill our hands full of quarters so we could feed the donkey kong machine in the bowling alley.

Tim Shoop:

Yeah, so similar I would. It is three or four dollars a quarters right and I would play, but when I was done I was done. My goal was to get a high score and get that badge of honor by having my three initials up there right for the high score talk go ahead so and and that's I.

Sam The IT Guy:

I love that you have that experience, right, because it's one of those things where, like now, I know exactly, I'm like, oh, I know exactly how to talk about this with just what you presented. So that being kind of the early days of gaming right, this is before, like massive amounts of studies and money has been pumped into the industry, how it works, why it's successful, all of that jazz but it's fun to actually watch the natural evolution of it. Right, there are things that were embedded in gaming back in those days that are still there. You want to talk about getting the high score so you can have your name.

Sam The IT Guy:

We have achievements now, very specialized tasks that you have to unlock right and they're all used as a badge of honor to show, hey, I'm this good at this game sure.

Tim Shoop:

So I played madden right and in madden I can go on there, I can do a, a competition exercise and I can earn some players, you know, to add to my, my, my ultimate team and things like that or player cards. I can dress my my guy right a different way.

Sam The IT Guy:

My guy, my avatar, my guy and I, legitimately, would have prepared to wait as long as it took for you to find that word hey, listen, there are a lot of dumb words in today's society around technology oh yes but and I can't keep up with them all, yeah I just you know we, we were the birth of all this exactly.

Tim Shoop:

Anyway, long story short, let's jump forward. Okay to robux, yes, and vbucks yes and virtual currencies that are used in these games and how that interchange works right, and you know what? What your child, what, why? So they're wearing a badge of honor. So if they're, they have a special outfit that they've outfitted their avatar with yeah and they're the only ones because their other buddy, their parents, wouldn't buy it for them right or they didn't have the money and weren't allowed to go buy it exactly.

Tim Shoop:

Then maybe maybe they're picked on, you know. Maybe they're not looked at, you know they, they wear it to have. That I don't know.

Sam The IT Guy:

Now the real reason for when it comes to skins at least in my experience from playing games when it comes to actually purchasing those all skins and customizations for appearances and things are all meant to just be another expression of your personality. It's all about your way of expressing or showing what you're into. Hilariously enough, in free-to-play games Now granted millennials, millennials, gen z it might be a completely different field now, um, but when I was playing those games like that at that age, you got made fun of for spending money on a skin because they're like bro, do you not know? This game is free, like everyone, like it was kind of a it's kind of the norm right now.

Tim Shoop:

They're mandatory. It's yeah, yeah, and I mean weapons, weapons inside the game. Right, are they allowed to buy and upgrade?

Sam The IT Guy:

Well, some games will have features like that, and that's where you're going to hear the phrases. If you ever hear the phrase pay to win, that's what they mean. You are spending real-world money for an in-game advantage. It is something that is universally hated by the gaming community I don't like it.

Sam The IT Guy:

It's horrific. So, but what the what? The evolution of these games? Like? How far they've gone, especially when it comes to the live service games right, your fortnights, your world of warcraft, destiny, like the ones that you hop in every night and play with your friends. Every single one of those games have what's called a progression system in place. It is actually part of the game, and the way that it's designed to maximize its fun is that you have this sense of progressing as you play. Your time is rewarded by gaining in game items and game currency, things of that nature. Your time is being rewarded. Now, that's the reason why, like when I hear like oh yeah, he got permabanned, it hurts, like even even it not being me, because that is years of work, I know it seems he, he, yeah, yeah.

Tim Shoop:

He's like dad, I have so much money tied up in this and and and I just I'm, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna get that back right, and I don't. It's not. The first thing out of his mouth is this isn't fair, right, and and and. Then when he sent he savvy, yeah, he sent a ticket in epic, right, and this is what I kind of want to get into. Yeah, he got a bot response because it came back within minutes okay and it it.

Tim Shoop:

Now you know we're in the cyber security realm. Oh yeah, you get a phishing email. They're always written the same way. Kindly sir right yada, yada, yada this, and that these are written very similar to that so immediately I I thought, oh my God, this is written like a hacker wrote a response and my son sent it, got it back right away and they couldn't give him an exact reason. Nope, you're permabanned. Sorry, situation is this, and blah, blah, blah. So I sent an email to them.

Tim Shoop:

I'm the father you know, know and I care about my kids, of course, and I don't want to see them upset about anything, of course, as long as they didn't cause it. Right now I did the due diligence right and it looks like he didn't do anything wrong. Come to find out that kid reported him yeah, I know, and, it, and, and and.

Tim Shoop:

It was very easy for him to do that, but we're gonna get into that in segment two. Okay, uh, I'm out of beer, so, edge, take it away, let's have another beer. We're gonna talk about being banned in games and what you, as a parent, need to know all right, guys.

Edge:

So our next beer is the samuel adams old fizzy wig ale. This is actually what I'm drinking right now. So the fizzy wig ale is a seasoned beer brewed by boston beer lager, known for its samuel adams brand. It's inspired by the character mr fizzy wig from charles darwin's a christmas carol. This beer is typically released during the holiday season and is part of the Samuel Adams Winter Classics Variety Pack. Old Fizzy Wig Ale is a rich and flavorful brew with notes of caramel, toffee and spices reminiscent of the festive flavors often associated with the holiday season. It's often described as a hearty and warming beer perfect for enjoying during colder months or festive gatherings.

Tim Shoop:

Yeah, and we're having it in the dead of summer, under these hot lights, in our studio.

Edge:

It's always summer in Florida.

Sam The IT Guy:

But I'm pretty sure it was actually charles dickens who wrote a christmas carol, not charles darwin oh, oh yeah, I am so sorry you didn't think we'd notice yeah, but we did sorry hey, uh, thanks for calling them out on air you're welcome.

Tim Shoop:

You're welcome yeah, hey, this is all about accountability. That's funny, so let's get funny. So let's get into the ban, let's get into this ban and let's talk about how players can get banned. And this is where you come in. Sam. How they get banned in games like Fortnite, roblox, call of Duty, pokemon Go and more. The kid that reported them, my son, showed me how easy it is to click, pull up a form, pick why you want to report somebody and just flip and report them.

Sam The IT Guy:

Yep Go. Yes, sir, now that in my experience, that is actually something that games have been doing a much better job of making much more accessible. I've been doing a much better job of making much more accessible Because, when it comes to all of these games and this goes for not just the games that you play online that are up for a certain amount of time, monthly subscription, no, I'm talking like you walk into the store, buy a physical copy of a disc and go home with it. You have that physical game in your hand. You do not own it. Every single game developer, every single game manufacturer, every single one of them, their terms of service starts with uh, oh, what was it exactly? It is you. Uh. By accepting these terms, you acknowledge that you are, uh, not the owner of it, but instead purchasing, purchasing a license for it, a license right.

Tim Shoop:

They're licensing it for distribution.

Sam The IT Guy:

Yes, and this is a lesson that you learn very quickly in gaming. I learned this one through Neopets, which is, if their game is broken, if you exploit that, you get punished for it. Wow, so it's this weird thing that you know, I hear about and like I hear, like the same points that you know, same feelings, that I felt, the same logical conclusions that I came to when experiencing something like that, um, later on in life. A much more, a much closer example to this would be when I used to play league of legends, because that's also a free-to-play game where you can spend money for skins and it, and it was all cosmetic, like it was one of those really good ones, free to play but not pay to win. Um, and someone would be like, oh, you play league of legends, like yeah, they're like why? Like, oh, it's, it's free to play. And they're like, oh, how much money did you spend on that? And you're like two grand. But when it came?

Sam The IT Guy:

But when it comes to things like league of legends, um, and really any online game at this point in time, especially one where it allows the players to actually chat with one another, um, they are usually pretty, they're supposed to be heavily moderated, um, but especially when you get games like world of warcraft that you know has millions upon millions of people every day playing right, the regular moderation becomes a problem so typically with these games that that built-in report system that's like super easy and quick to do. Uh, anytime you go to initialize one of those, as like a usual thing, that it'll do is take the time that you actually go to put in the report and they go back to when the incident occurs that you put in your report and then they look through the logs and they'll make a decision on that. Now, playing league of legends and it's the reason why I kind of want to bring this one up, because now, granted, league of legends, that's going to be right games. It's a completely different company than epic games, um, and even though there are multiple kind of like accepted industry standards, they are their own entity and can set their own rules, right, um.

Sam The IT Guy:

But in league I had a friend of mine who is what we call from the, because from the internet we refer to them as trolls. Um, I do believe in younger days, pre-internet, uh, we used to just call people like that difficult, like oh yeah, he's just gonna bust your balls for fun, uh, except for dialed up to 11 with the anonymity of the internet. So he's going back and forth with this guy and decides he crossed the line and reports him. They gets that automated response really quickly and then about two days later he has what's referred to as a soft ban, which is usually what you'll get when it comes to like misconduct, right like hey man you're crossing along.

Tim Shoop:

How long does a soft?

Sam The IT Guy:

ban last depends on the infraction and the company. Uh, 30 days, 30 days, that would be like if you were like hardcore like that's like cyber bullying Right. Like you, you were talking smack in general chat, you know, left general chat and then you jumped into their DMs to be like yo let me tell you about yourself. Yeah. So, yeah, that that's usually. You're looking at 30 days.

Tim Shoop:

Um, for just being annoying or like rude, you usually look about two or three days, so so he should have gotten a two to three day ban for what he did if, if it was one of those where they pulled the logs and realized like, okay, this, this, this dude's getting a little. I don't think they actually pulled the logs. I think there's I think you read it I was in reddit, yeah, and I was reading about it and a lot, of, a lot of users agree, a lot of players agree oh, of course that you know a.

Tim Shoop:

They're getting back to you right away, which you know is either a help desk or a bot most likely a bot. The way these are written I can, I can kind of pick up on it right, and they're using keyword scans in the dialogue to determine which auto response to send you. Not just which auto response, yeah, but when they're scanning the machine, maybe they're looking for keywords, okay, and shoot if anybody mentions hey, cheating, or this or that, or you use maybe that triggers the, the permaban.

Sam The IT Guy:

It's entirely possible and it could also be something as small as there was a bug in the game that if you do it a certain way, you got a massive advantage that the entire community knows about, because everyone jumps on Reddit and is like hey guys, if you do X, y and Z, you become God in this game.

Sam The IT Guy:

People are going to jump on that immediately. If you want like a really good laugh, like do you enjoy like british humor, like kind of just dry sarcastic, of course I do, okay. Um, and do you also like over the top ridiculousness?

Tim Shoop:

of course I do okay, there is.

Sam The IT Guy:

There is a youtube channel. I don't I don't mean to plug random people, but he is exactly kind of exactly what we're talking about on this one. Okay, he's called the Spiffing Brit and this is a guy who uses a. He's very, very British or does a very good accent Honestly, couldn't tell either way but he goes into games and he finds things that are wrong with them and then makes video tutorials on how everyone else can start doing it oh that's force the developers to fix it, to fix it yeah, so like it's otherwise lazy, they drag it out right exactly

Tim Shoop:

here's them up so permavamp. So on the temporary bans. Right, uh, harassment, maybe some bullying, uh, offensive language, yeah, things like that. Permaban cheating, right, extreme bullying, right things like that. Yes, violence, violence. Uh well, how can you not be violent in a video?

Edge:

game these days. I mean you can threaten someone's life right?

Sam The IT Guy:

someone genuinely feels, you know, scared right or or even something as direct or horrific as like hey, go kill yourself like that right that that's a. That's a. That's one that pops up like it's. When I was growing up playing games like online, like it was one of those like hey, man, don't go online to play games if you are not ready to be talked to well, I would you know.

Tim Shoop:

It's funny because in the situation of my son and what he went through, right I? I know, even if I wouldn't have been banned for the initial incident, I would have been banned because I would have told that kid, let me come over and you come out, meet me in your yard I mean because that's the gen x mentality. Oh yeah, or at least how I used to be I would.

Sam The IT Guy:

I would say pre-camera in everyone's pocket.

Tim Shoop:

That's exactly how we handled business, yeah film them exactly film them, record it, throw them under the bus, yeah, I don't like it. I think it's dumb um so uh, cheat detection software, so that we we mentioned that a couple times where these companies monitor, uh what these kids are doing right online and keywords and things like that pick up on it. But cheat detection software scans the pc, looks for aim bots, what hack, wall, hacks, right, uh, exploits and unauthorized third-party software right that might be installed to give the kid an unfair advantage, right go okay now with this one.

Sam The IT Guy:

I don't know the exact specifics for each games, uh, because I, I haven't, I've, I haven't really played, like okay. So, gamers, y'all out there who who know what I'm about to talk about, you, you know what it's like to be about that life, and by that life I mean not having one. Uh, it's been a hot minute since I have game gamed, uh, the way you know, children do kids do, yeah, yeah, exactly, they're hardcore and they are um, now, back then I would.

Sam The IT Guy:

I would look inside and out, because you you never know where you might get tripped up. Now it's my understanding which again could be dead wrong that what they use to quote unquote, scan the computer to find sheet detection software. They use this access to, like the NET framework, shared resources upon the OS, that multiple programs are accessing and all that is in their terms. In their terms, it's something that's collected in logs.

Tim Shoop:

Wow To my knowledge To me that Because that allows them. In their terms, it's something that's collected in law.

Sam The IT Guy:

Wow, to my knowledge that, because that allows them.

Tim Shoop:

That's invasive.

Sam The IT Guy:

And that's the thing. It feels invasive, but that's how they keep the technically like to the letter of the law, the anonymity, the privacy that they're required to maintain. That's how they do it. Facebook algorithms they work exactly the same way. They go off of likes and dislikes and things like that. They don't have a like a. Oh asa likes this. They have this profile likes x, y and z reacts to this. This and this.

Edge:

This is what they want to see so just throwing another thing out there too. Yeah, aside from just like cheat software. Another way around it is they're inventing gaming controllers that have like aim bots and stuff built into the controller. You just plug it up via USB to your computer and the cheat detection software is scanning your device manager for USB devices.

Edge:

That isn't like a common windows device right so it'll flag if it detects you have some weird third-party controller plugged into your computer while you're playing some game, or your phone, or and who does this? A lot of the manufacturer or the game developers these days, wow. And what's great, and it's kind of.

Sam The IT Guy:

it's kind of funny though, cause, like the, the, the, that kind of visceral reaction that your son had like I am very familiar with that where you're just like I lost all of it. Now back, but back in my day, cause I'm getting close enough to being able to say that often, but back in my day when we played games. If something like that were to happen, it doesn't matter if we put money into it, how much time we spent on it, how important it was to us If we went to our parents and were like man, I can't believe this happened. Upset they'd be like dude, it is a game, get over it.

Sam The IT Guy:

They had no idea just how impactful's.

Tim Shoop:

Interesting, because this is actually a good lesson yeah, it's, it's a phenomenal lesson be nice, be kind right, treat others as you would want to be treated right, and none of this would happen at all, but in all fairness, yeah, is um the consequence of them thinking that you're cheating, even if you didn't cheat right? Is it fair to be permabanned from something that you have an investment in, and an investment meaning using vbucks or robux to buy in-game purchases.

Sam The IT Guy:

Yeah, um, I fair, absolutely not. Uh, that that one very easy to say, that that's that's a shame on you, epic games but at the same time, because I am gonna play a devil's advocate no, I like that yeah uh, they don't have many other choices because, since you're not buying the game, you don't own the game.

Tim Shoop:

You're playing in their sandbox and I want a fair playing field for my children to play in right that, um, treats everybody fairly, exactly, and keeps the baddies out, uh, and things like that, and and gives them a nice, safe place to play, right, but at the same point, you're going to devastate a child by just permabanting, banning them and not giving them a real reason, not showing them proof or evidence, yeah, of what it is you did wrong. Right now, if they could provide evidence, right, especially to me, yes, I would feel differently about this topic but they didn't provide me anything. Even the responses to me were stupid. Right.

Tim Shoop:

Now most companies… You're getting me riled up, sam Well.

Sam The IT Guy:

I am a ginger, I have that effect on people. So from what I can tell because, again, I'm not familiar with epic games is particular terms of service and how they do things, but most of these games like live online services where they do the have bans and they do end up banning you. Almost all of them have an appeals process like a way to appeal the decision and it is just hoop after hoop.

Tim Shoop:

Well, they will get back to you. I heard they generally two weeks they. They generally won't. Generally they won get back to you in like two weeks. They generally won't.

Sam The IT Guy:

Generally they won't, because typically something like that gets triggered by an automated system, so they usually have the logs to back it.

Tim Shoop:

There's the trigger key, the trigger keyword automation. Automation is great. We use a lot of it at our company.

Sam The IT Guy:

Oh my goodness, we could not. We could not without.

Tim Shoop:

But I think when it comes to this kind of stuff, especially when you're dealing with children, I feel like there's an obligation to treat them with fairness by having human oversight and not just relying on automation, because automation isn't perfect.

Tim Shoop:

No, it's not, and it makes mistakes, just like humans do, but there are different kinds of mistakes, because it's A plus B equals C, or if, then what? It's that kind of learning. So I feel in this case there should have been proof, which was never provided. The proof is the other kid bragged to everybody, right, that he got him banned. Yeah, which shame on that kid. Uh, I'm not gonna name names, but shame on him for doing what he did just because he got upset in a game. Right, I don't think you should be able to do that. Um, so educating children on acceptable behavior and the consequences of breaking rules, right, if I had evidence, I would sit my child down and talk to him. Right, I don't have evidence, yeah, so I'm gonna side with the child until I have evidence, because he is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around, unless you, unless you get into politics, and then it's usually the other way around, that's true, I mean.

Edge:

I think another thing to consider is these companies that have, you know, like fortnite, roblox, they have millions of players every single day. They're cheating, you know, detection software or harassment policies are banning hundreds of thousands of people all the time. Yeah, every single person that gets banned is all going to send a response and saying why I get banned. I didn't do anything wrong there's no help.

Tim Shoop:

That's big enough to control that, yeah and so it's.

Edge:

I don't know it's just kind of picking your poison on whether you're going to start a fire enough to get someone to notice it.

Tim Shoop:

I feel like if you are going to develop a game that becomes the monstrosity that Fortnite has become, then you have an obligation to the players, the players and the parents of the players, because the demographic there is tween. Right. It's a big tween game, right, and you have an obligation to the parents. I just don't think it's fair.

Sam The IT Guy:

And I agree with that. I do agree with that wholeheartedly. It's like they should. But at the end of the day, the only people they have to answer to, the only people they need to keep happy, are shareholders. So it's real easy to take the cheaper option instead of the right option.

Edge:

I mean. So what if and just hear me out, what if? Their account obviously is marked as a child account? It's an account for a minor. Um, minors make stupid decisions all the time. Their brains are not developed until they're much older than that they're, they're going to do stuff.

Sam The IT Guy:

They don't write laws, they don't know the rules?

Edge:

what if for minors whenever they break these policies? What if they just did soft bans or required sort of parental consent before checking it back in? Because it's, it's going to happen? What about rehabilitation?

Tim Shoop:

what about if you?

Edge:

like a training program?

Tim Shoop:

well, think about it if you have a child that broke a rule, right? That's a teaching moment right in my book. I don't have evidence of the rule being broken but if you can provide that evidence to a parent right or to the child with the parent and and have the parent sit down with them right and then be able to maybe provide some sort of in-game monitoring for the parent to easily monitor that child's activity within the game right. That would be a win-win all the way around.

Tim Shoop:

Now I monitor, I'm able to control my kids internet right or their activity, right, but that's, that's device-based and it's within our network right, but it's not within the actual game. I can see what game they've been playing, I can see what sites they've gone to, I can see what they've done. Yeah, so I can get a choke hold on it if they break my rules, right, but I can't inside the game. I don't know every little thing they're doing other than what?

Sam The IT Guy:

I hear coming out of the room right and that actually leads to spicy devil's advocate portion, right right For the company itself. Just the amount of resources that it would take to actually be able to moderate these to what I think we could all agree on would be sufficient levels of moderation, safety and freedom for the kids to have so they can have that safe place to play. But at the same time, at what point can the company say, okay, this is on the parent, not on us. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's the big and I know that's the one. That immediately you're like who's their customer?

Tim Shoop:

Is it the parent or is it the child? The child is that player. So technically the child's the customer. That influences the parent to buy the skin inside the game. Exactly so they want to keep that child happy. Yes. Now, my son spent hundreds of dollars.

Tim Shoop:

He probably would have spent hundreds more right so is it a good business decision for them to permaban a kid based on their automation, where they have no evidence or proof that they can provide me right? Or are they holding back from providing me that evidence or proof because they don't want it to turn in to some other legal battle? So well, go ahead and we're going to segue. We're going to use that as a segue to get over into, uh, legal and ethical right concerns. Okay, before we close our show, okay, that sounds good.

Sam The IT Guy:

Um, now with it when it comes to, uh, comes to the legal aspect of it, right, the withholding of it, not providing any of it. The term, again, it's in the terms of service that they don't actually have to provide you.

Tim Shoop:

I know let's have a beer.

Sam The IT Guy:

Yeah, let's have a beer and let's move into it.

Tim Shoop:

You're behind. You need to finish your beer. Edge is going to introduce the last and final beer, and then we're going to talk about the legal and ethical consideration when we allow our kids to play these games, yes, or folks not let them play the games, right. We want our kids to have fun but they're not having fun. If it's this easy to destroy kids spirit, right go edge all right.

Edge:

So our next beer here is the Maduro Brown Ale from the Cigar City Brewery in Tampa, florida. The brewer's description states that it's a northern English brown ale brewed with flaked oats, full in body and silky on the palate. Maduro Brown Ale's chocolate and espresso notes are rounded out by toffee-like qualities and a light woody hop presence.

Tim Shoop:

All right, since we drink beer on this show, I am very blunt about the ones I like and the ones I don't like, and in defense of this company. First of all, I don't like nutty brown ales. I don't like this beer. How about you? Well, and it is a winter, I mean that is a winter, it's um the description was very well written, like so well written.

Sam The IT Guy:

But they could have just said like hey, have you ever wanted to drink?

Tim Shoop:

But they could have just said like hey, have you ever wanted to drink carbonated mud?

Sam The IT Guy:

water. You're a lot more harsh than I am. Tim, did you like it or are you not drinking? I'm not drinking. Would you like?

Tim Shoop:

to try mine after we've endorsed this beer in the way we have. Do you want to try it?

Edge:

Oh yeah, I am all about toffee and espresso.

Tim Shoop:

Oh, that was in the description, wasn't it? It's just not my.

Sam The IT Guy:

It's not my thing now that you said coffee, I get it now yeah, it's, it says toffee and espresso toffee and espresso.

Tim Shoop:

I do like. I do like espresso ice cream the last one. I don't like it in my beer so, yeah, the last one I liked, though, uh, so let's get into legal it still tastes like I'm trying to turn acorns into a jawbreaker oh, how do you do that? You step on them and crush them, and then no, you just put dirty acorns in your mouth all right, legal and ethical consideration.

Tim Shoop:

Let's get back to our children yes, sir legal and ethical considerations when it comes to playing these games. Uh, and the perma bands and the and the temp bands that come along with it, um, which I've learned a lot about this week. Um, let's, before we get into that, let's talk about epics. Legal battles yes, they've had a few now, obviously, um and I, and then I'm going to go back to my story and talk about what I dug into in their terms of service right, and what really was an eye-opener for me, other than the invasiveness of all this monitoring software. Uh, apple and google they fought both of them and obviously to for for, uh, their their store sales and being able to sell in their stores um.

Tim Shoop:

They centered around microtransactions. Was that google or was that apple, the microtransactions?

Sam The IT Guy:

uh, both actually um. Why don't we?

Tim Shoop:

dive into that. I'm going to give you the floor while I sip on this wonderful beer that we just spoke about.

Sam The IT Guy:

And I also feel kind of bad about it. Edgebuddy, do you want to read a synopsis of it? A synopsis of yeah, just of the like hey, broad, general, this is what happened. Well, actually it's not needed. That's exactly what I was just asked to do.

Edge:

Anyway, we passed that off. Yeah, I know right, I was just like hey, you want to do like a beer?

Sam The IT Guy:

No, okay, all right. So essentially, back in. What was it? 2021 or 2022? I have actually something ready 2021. Okay, uh, I have actually something right 2021, okay.

Sam The IT Guy:

So originally it was epic games sued apple. Uh, because on their app store, uh, they force you to actually go through the their built-in app store for payments. So any credit card processing, anything like that, was done by Apple and they treat in-app purchases like sales commission. So just to be able to have your game in the App Store with in-app purchases, part of the requirement was going through Apple and you would end up having to pay any of them. Any developer would have to pay 30% out to Apple as commission. Now, that's just the commission part.

Sam The IT Guy:

Apple also processes their credit cards for them. Now, credit card processing also takes a percentage of what you purchase percentage of what you purchase. So anytime, like, for instance, like if you're at the gas station and you swipe your card at the checkout, the actual gas station ends up having I think the last time I checked it was like 3.65% was the basic level, or 365 basis points, and they would take that amount out of each and every transaction. So if you have a $10 check, you'd end up paying 30 cents, and that's fair. But when it comes to the Epic and Apple, if you were to pay $10 for something, apple would get three, so you would end up only getting 70%. And since they have their own payment options, they have their own payment provider and their own portals and ways to go through it. Apple was intentionally blocking it to force them to go through the app store. All about money, all about money. So now google did the same thing.

Tim Shoop:

Uh, now so what did fortnight? What did these companies do? Discount, oh yeah, so they they promote something, yes, and they actually what?

Sam The IT Guy:

what caused them to actually file the lawsuit was because they got uh removed from the app store unlisted, kicked out because so who sued, who so?

Edge:

app epic sued apple epic sued apple right jump in here real quick so thank you for correcting me essentially what happens is everyone knows iOS has their complete operating system locked down.

Edge:

If you want to put an app in the App Store for Apple, you have to play by their rules. Any transactions that happens goes through Apple's system and they take a 30% commission from that. So what Fortnite did? Because they want to make the money from it. They want more people buying it. They can sell their V-Bucks and their stuff for 30% cheaper if they went a roundabout way through Apple. What they did is they implemented their own external link that allows people on mobile devices to follow a link to purchase something outside of the apple store. Apple detected that and banned them.

Edge:

However, fortnight was fully expecting it, epic gamers was fully expecting it, and they did a whole campaign launched around it with hashtag free fortnight or whatever, to get it back on, and they sued them because they thought you know apple was doing a monopoly or whatever was. You know shouldn't be forcing them to do this. They did the same thing with google. Now, google is an android-based operating system. They don't force people to use the play store. It's's open source. There's multiple app stores that you can put your apps into. However, there is a difference with them. They have some different policies. They try to steer people towards using the Google Play Store, saying hey, this is what everyone uses. If you want your app to be the number one app, you got to use the google play store.

Sam The IT Guy:

You can go somewhere else. So they essentially held seo over their head like hey, play with us or don't get picked up, right, okay?

Edge:

so that was the difference, but essentially it was epic games trying to sue apple and google for a monopoly in these kinds of things.

Sam The IT Guy:

Yeah, because essentially so they lost to.

Edge:

Apple. Well, Google lost to Epic and Epic lost to Apple. Kind of Apple. There's like three points in that lawsuit, and it was the one that Apple forces people to go through their app store and doesn't open it up for external links to purchase somewhere else. Yeah, that was the only. Thing.

Sam The IT Guy:

Right, because, with Apple, apple ended up instituting a new policy in good faith and that was enough to let the judge drop it. Essentially, they changed it to where, instead of getting, 30% of every transaction comes to the store. They cut it to 24 for large developers and 12 for small developers. Now I do not know the criteria for large versus small developer, um, but that is something I would be interested to look.

Sam The IT Guy:

I think it's like a one million dollar commit um okay revenue in a year or something like that now that to me sounds fair, because if you're, if you're pulling, if your app, your game, is pulling in a mil a year, then I.

Sam The IT Guy:

But at the same time, because here's the thing, and and this is the reason why I I actually I'm with epic on this one is because these you have apple and google, essentially controlling both the marketing platform and the payments, and they do it under the guise of the. The ecosystem that they're building out, right like apple, is one. I'm sure everyone listening to this knows talking points that apple has come up with to convince you that the ecosystem that they have built in is in place, so everything works better, which is true to a certain extent. But, um, I know now, I know it's. It's kind of related to the epic games lawsuit, because the epic games lawsuit kind of got the attention on apple that they don't want to have. But it's also why you can kind of understand why an additional lawsuit comes against Apple, because when you stifle that, when you're pulling in everything and not allowing anyone else to compete, it stifles innovation.

Tim Shoop:

So it makes sense for Apple to be getting poked by any trust laws well you know, when my son told me how much money he had invested in this account it's a little over 500 bucks over several years I mean he didn't, and I would call that responsible spending in a game like that.

Tim Shoop:

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess yeah, for amount over time. I've always been against it. But you want your children to have fun. You want them to hang out with their friends. It's like when we used to hang out at the playground or at the ballpark or whatever.

Sam The IT Guy:

Pool hall.

Tim Shoop:

Pool and alley. I went to a pool and alley which had pool tables.

Sam The IT Guy:

That's actually. I have one.

Tim Shoop:

So you want them to have fun, right, but when he told me how much money over time, was invested and that they just permabanned them.

Tim Shoop:

And my first thought, yeah, was this has class action lawsuit written all over it yeah and then, when I went into their terms of service, the very first paragraph in large caps is their protections against quote-unquote class action lawsuits, because obviously I'm not the first person that thought to bring a class action lawsuit against them for the same reason and I'm gonna go as far as to say that before epic was like, epic was formed with that clause in their terms of service, because this is something that has been going on in the gaming industry since its inception.

Sam The IT Guy:

Like, when it comes to live service games, this has been the norm. Now, the arguments for it, I understand right, because the thing is like, when you're talking about, like, all the protections that you have with your kids set up and everything, I'm just like oh yeah, I have those too. Like I filtered DNS on my network to prevent certain traffic. I also locked down their devices themselves. But the big thing that Epic knows and it's something that we know all too well as well, and that is these days, kids are better with computers than their parents are. You and I are the exception because, well, let's be honest here, we're tech gods, so we know how this stuff works inside and out. So when we don't want our kids doing something on that computer, it ain't happening. But that's not the reality for other parents.

Sam The IT Guy:

So I feel like Epic has to over correct on that. But at the same time, like it is devastating to have years of work ripped out of you with a permaban and not and not even having an avenue to be heard yeah, I like that they have a safe haven for kids to play in right well as safe as the internet.

Tim Shoop:

You know, and these microtransactions and these things they're doing. I mean, I get it. It's recurring revenue. It's a way for a company to be more sustainable. There's more of a growth trajectory for companies with recurring monthly or annual revenue. They give the game away for free for that very reason, because they know they're going to make their money from all these kids that want to spend money inside the game. My daughter plays a game or she used to. I don't know if she's still playing this game inside a roblox called bricksburg.

Tim Shoop:

A pretty cool game, you can build your little mansion, you earn and yeah and you build and all three of mine play that together. It's a pretty cool it is nifty it's neat. She built all kinds of crazy places but at the same time you know and they want to spend money. She's a little bit more thrifty with her spend in the game my son.

Tim Shoop:

He is very competitive, so I can understand respect yeah I mean, you know, and he's good, he's really really good at that game and it's really a shame that he can no longer play it with what he's built up, because someone that I don't know made a claim Right, and you don't even have verifiable proof that what was going on so?

Sam The IT Guy:

go ahead. Yeah, that's what to say, because this is I don't. I don't need to be like, oh, like, let me shoot down every, every point that comes up, because I, in all honesty, I agree with you 100 percent. Like, 100 percent, it's just. This isn't a new concept to me. This is what this is in my, in my, in my head, what it's always been. This is what this is in my head, what it's always been. This is, well, the terms of service to play these games.

Tim Shoop:

Well, I call it bullshit.

Sam The IT Guy:

Agreed, agreed.

Tim Shoop:

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for getting nerdy with us for an hour Again. We brought on Sam the IT guy and thank you, edge, for producing another successful Nerds on Tap show. We hope you check out more episodes of nerds on tap, everything from. We talk about everything from electric vehicles to what do we cover in our last segment? What if? Yeah, it was wireless electricity, future technologies. Obviously wireless technology technically well wireless electricity actually already exists because you have it in wireless charging, but we want to see it in more mainstream use.

Tim Shoop:

And while you're at it, check out Digital Boardwalk TV and check out some of the skits that we've made here in-house. You might find one starring Sam the IT guy right over here, this sexy redheaded beast. So thank you again for getting nerdy with us for an hour. We appreciate it. We hope your children have a good, safe gameplay inside any of these games, and here's to them not getting perma-banned.

Tim Shoop:

Have a great day Cheers my fellow nerds and beer lovers. Stay tuned for more Nerds on Tap. Oh, and one more thing Help us spread the nerdy love and the love for grape brews by sharing this podcast with your friends, colleagues and fellow beer enthusiasts. Let's build a community that embraces curiosity. Colleagues and fellow beer enthusiasts, let's build a community that embraces curiosity, innovation and the enjoyment of a cold one.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Tim Shoop

Host